About Episode 8:
Dave and Eddie go deep on one of their favorite species: brook trout. Their guest is Nathaniel “Than” Hitt, a researcher with the Eastern Ecological Science Center in Kearneysville, West Virginia. Hitt discusses threats to the fish, the only native trout of the southern Appalachians, as well as signs of hope—and ways in which anglers can provide important data to help ongoing studies. The Wild South is presented in partnership with Duck Camp.
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Sites mentioned in Episode 8:
Eastern Ecological Wildlife Center
Transcript of Episode 8:
Nathaniel Hitt (00:00):
All of a sudden, you’re connected to an angling community. You could learn the history of this fish that you’ve caught. We’ve always wondered about that, and now we can actually answer it.
Dave DiBenedetto (00:17):
Welcome to the Wild South Podcast. I’m Dave DiBenedetto, editor-in-Chief of Garden and Gun Magazine.
Eddie Nickens (00:24):
And I’m Eddie Nickens, contributing editor for Garden and Gun.
Dave DiBenedetto (00:28):
Together, we are talking with the most interesting outdoorsmen and outdoorswomen in the South and beyond.
Eddie Nickens (00:35):
Quail hunters and duck hunters, trout anglers and redfish fanatics, musicians, scientists, writers, wild game cooks, and frankly, a few wildcats we dig up along the way.
Dave DiBenedetto (00:47):
We’re talking to legends and legends in the making.
Eddie Nickens (00:51):
All with unforgettable stories of life way beyond the sidewalk.
Dave DiBenedetto (00:57):
So Eddie, the heat of summer has arrived in Charleston, South Carolina, and when it does, my mind turns to brook trout. I can’t think of anywhere else I’d rather be than up in the mountains with my three weight fly rod, bush whacking off a mountain trail to a tiny stream to catch brook trout.
Eddie Nickens (01:22):
I mean, who could not be in love with this fish? It’s the, you know, it’s the only native trout that we have in the South. They’re not giant, they’re actually quite small often, but they live in the wildest, most tucked away corners. We have left, you know, in the clearest, cleanest water left on this planet, and they’re hanging on, not quite by thread yet, but the guy we’re gonna talk to today, Dr. Nathaniel Hitt is making sure that the future for brook trout looks healthy, Than, he likes to be called. He’s a research fish biologist at the Eastern Ecological Science Center up in Kearneysville, West Virginia. This is a big USGS study facility. And inside of this place, he’s built as he tells us a trout stream, like a laboratory sized trout stream where he can model.
Dave DiBenedetto (02:17):
It’s like the world’s coolest aquarium, I believe.
Eddie Nickens (02:20):
Yeah, right. You know, like, like whatever they have at Bass Pro shops, but like coming out of a scientist, you know, he can forecast stream flow and manipulate temperature and, and kind of study the effects of climate change, the effects of, environmental change and water chemistry. I mean, it’s super cool. His focus is on brook trout and what we can do to make sure that these things are around for generations and generations.
Dave DiBenedetto (02:46):
You know, he’s also using AI as a conservation tool. I mean, that part of this conversation really blew my mind, Eddie.
Eddie Nickens (02:55):
Yeah. You know, you’ve often accused my intelligence of being artificial but in this regard, you know, he’s gonna be relying on anglers. I mean, that’s the whole AI thing, you know, citizen science, right? Anglers are gonna be able to sign up and log on and help make a difference. It’s super exciting.
Dave DiBenedetto (03:13):
Yeah, no doubt about it. Let’s hear from Than.
Eddie Nickens (03:24):
Nathaniel Hitt, brook trout maestro, scientist, southern boy. Man welcome to the Wild South Podcast.
Nathaniel Hitt (03:32):
Thank you, sir. It’s so good to be with you.

Dave DiBenedetto (03:34):
And Nathaniel, you like to go by Than, correct?
Nathaniel Hitt (03:38):
Yeah, that’s right, Than is my nickname. It was an old backpack nickname. Stuck around for 30 years, so, we’ll keep it.
Dave DiBenedetto (03:44):
All right. Well, Than, I am delighted to have you on the show, as is Eddie. I know we are huge fans of brook trout, both of us. I certainly, it’s my favorite freshwater fish. Eddie, can you make that declaration?
Eddie Nickens (03:57):
I will make that declaration.
Dave DiBenedetto (03:59):
Wow.
Eddie Nickens (03:59):
It is my favorite freshwater fish. And I’ve been really, really fortunate to, to chase ’em for quite a while.
Nathaniel Hitt (04:08):
Well, I love it, you guys. I’m in good company here because I’m biased too, and I’m on board a hundred percent. Well,
Eddie Nickens (04:14):
Good. Let’s, we’ll jump right in. You know, Dave and I have talked a number of times about how much we do love brook trout. I think you live in the geographic center Than of brook trout range. I mean, when you take the whole range from, I guess, Georgia up through Labrador, maybe you’re smack in the middle of it. Why don’t you tell us where you are and what you do?
Nathaniel Hitt (04:41):
Well, I’m in West Virginia. The US Geological Survey has a research station out here, the Eastern Ecological Research Center and Southern Appalachian Mountains is where I am and where I work. I love it. Now, brook trout down here, of course, are very different from what you’re gonna find up north in the lakes. There’s all sorts of diversity, which is fantastic. In the southern Apps, of course, we’re talking about mountain streams, highlands, some of the best places on earth, in my humble opinion. But as we move north, you see lake populations, you also see some really cool salter populations. There are migratory fish that move to the ocean into brackish areas and move back. They’re moving to feed. They get pretty big, a lot bigger than the Southern Appalachian variety that we know so well.
Dave DiBenedetto (05:27):
I had no idea that there is an agermous, right. That they were.
Nathaniel Hitt (05:31):
That’s right.
Dave DiBenedetto (05:31):
They could be an agermous. how big, like four or five pounds big, or?
Nathaniel Hitt (05:36):
Yeah, you’re well, I mean, you know, once again, you’re talking about a 12 inch fish being kind of a lunker.
Dave DiBenedetto (05:41):
Right, yeah.
Nathaniel Hitt (05:41):
But you do see that growth where fish are moving to access forage. They are getting, you know, much larger.
Dave DiBenedetto (05:48):
Wow.
Nathaniel Hitt (05:48):
Now you go over to the Great Lakes, you can’t forget about the drift list. There are native brook trout up in the drift list section too, and some of those are migratory into the Great Lakes, who call them coasters. So, you know, it’s really about the landscape. And these fish reflect the mountains down here. They reflect the connection to the ocean. They reflect the lakes of the North, if you go to the Northeast, it’s just fantastic.
Dave DiBenedetto (06:11):
Yeah, I mean, that’s one thing than we were, Eddie and I were discussing is why, you know, what is it, what do you think it is about the brook trout? I mean, there obviously there’s this great history. Tell us what you think, makes them so cherished.
Nathaniel Hitt (06:29):
Yes. Well, let’s zoom out a little bit. I mean, these fish are basically the living jewels of the mountains. Now, about 30,000 years ago, there was a big old glacier parked in Ohio, Pennsylvania, that was called the Wisconsin Glacier. It didn’t scrub down the Southern Appalachians, but it sure did refrigerate them. And so any fish that was gonna be surviving and thriving in the mountains here had to deal and to really embrace cold water.
Dave DiBenedetto (06:59):
Right.
Nathaniel Hitt (06:59):
So that’s why these guys are such an important indicator of climate change. As things warm up, they basically have seen the Appalachian Mountains transform and they’ve survived through it all. Question is, will they survive in the future?
Dave DiBenedetto (07:11):
Right, right. Which leads us into a little bit about what you’re doing, right? I mean, that’s the question you’re trying to answer, right?
Nathaniel Hitt (07:19):
That’s right. But, you know, it starts with something more basic. I think it’s just, let’s face it. I mean, these fish are gorgeous.
Dave DiBenedetto (07:28):
Right.
Nathaniel Hitt (07:28):
Look at these spotting patterns. You all know what I’m talking about?
Eddie Nickens (07:31):
Oh yeah.
Nathaniel Hitt (07:31):
I mean, it’s nature’s jewels. I mean, it’s like the nature’s firework display. What analogy do you wanna use? You got, you know, yellow spots, red spots, blue halos. The back has all these wavy yellow track marks on it. It’s amazing. And this is the only native trout in Appalachia, of course, right?
Dave DiBenedetto (07:49):
Yep.
Nathaniel Hitt (07:49):
And it’s one of the only ones that spawn in the fall, which their coloration goes berserk. You’ll start to see intense reds, you know, the black bellies of males. The spots get really highlighted. And a theory about why you see that amazing coloration show up in the fall. Well, if you’re walking a stream in that time of the year, what do you see? You know?
Dave DiBenedetto (08:11):
Yeah.
Nathaniel Hitt (08:11):
You see,
Dave DiBenedetto (08:11):
You see leaves.
Nathaniel Hitt (08:12):
Red maple leaves.
Dave DiBenedetto (08:13):
Falling leaves. Yeah.
Nathaniel Hitt (08:14):
So one of the theories about why we see such amazing colors on these fish in the fall when they’re spawning, is because it matches the leaves that fall into the stream. Those reds, those yellows. So it’s really possible that they’re using this as camouflage from predators. I mean, the herons, the water snakes, there’s a lot of hungry animals out there. So that’s one of the reasons we think that those colorations show up. It’s also communication to other fish saying, Hey, it’s spawn time, let’s go.
Dave DiBenedetto (08:45):
Do the female and male have the same amount of coloration during spawning time.
Nathaniel Hitt (08:48):
They both get colored up. The males are a little bit more vibrant, especially on their bellies. You’ll see those black stripes, and they really do show up.
Dave DiBenedetto (08:56):
And then what about the back, the top of the fish? Does that help camouflage them from above?
Nathaniel Hitt (09:02):
Absolutely. You know, you think about it from a predator’s perspective, it’s all they’re seeing is the top, those track marks, we call ’em vermiculations. It’s like worm tracks.
Dave DiBenedetto (09:10):
Right.
Nathaniel Hitt (09:10):
That’s just great camo.
Eddie Nickens (09:13):
Hey, you know, we talked about this glaciation aspect. Than, I’d love to hear you, you drill down a little bit more on the regionality of the fish that we have in the Southern Appalachians. You know, how these fish are different from fish further to the north. They’re different from the main fish, they’re different from Labrador fish. But even within the Southern Appalachians from watershed to watershed, there are these genetic differences. I think that’s one of the reasons that makes these fish so, so special, is that they have evolved in some instances to be exactly who they are, but only exactly where they live in a particular stream of river. Talk to us about that.
Nathaniel Hitt (09:58):
That’s right, Eddie. So you think about it in terms of where you’re connected to with cold water. So every little watershed kind of has its own population of fish that can have local adaptation, sort of genetic diversity at that scale. That’s amazing.
Dave DiBenedetto (10:15):
That’s amazing.
Nathaniel Hitt (10:15):
But another important part of this is that we’ve learned from some recent genetics work that when we stalk hatchery strained brook trout into these wild populations, or near these wild populations, they’re not randomly mating. They actually don’t interbreed into that wild population as much. And I suspect that’s because the hatchery strained fish, you know, have been selected for fast growth, survival in a hatchery, et cetera. And this is super valuable for anglers, don’t get me wrong, it’s super valuable. But the good news is that those wild fish populations aren’t getting degraded in general by hatchery stock. So that’s some good news.
Dave DiBenedetto (10:54):
Yeah, I would’ve never guessed that.
Eddie Nickens (10:57):
How do they interact then with the other two trout in the southern Appalachians?
Nathaniel Hitt (11:02):
Right?
Eddie Nickens (11:02):
You see the rainbow and the brown, of course are non-native. Talk to us about how that community sort of lives together or doesn’t.
Nathaniel Hitt (11:10):
So, of course, rainbows are the most stocked fish in the world. Rainbow trout are native to the west coast, to the US goes all the way up through Kamchatka, which is the Russian far east, and that’s the native range of rainbows. And then of course, brown trout or native to Europe, brown trout, rainbow trout and broke trout all have somewhat different habitat requirements. But those are fine differences ’cause they all need cold water. They all need clean gravels to spawn, and they all need that complicated woody debris. The kind of streams with structure, right? That’s where you’re gonna find fish. Anglers know this a hundred percent. So those are some of the commonalities, but there are some differences. Rainbow trout generally have a higher thermal tolerance, brown trout, maybe a little bit higher than brook trout, but a little less than rainbow. And the most restrictive, or the one that requires the coldest and cleanest water, that’s our native brook trout.

Dave DiBenedetto (12:04):
And tell me, do the rainbows and browns, eat brook trout?
Nathaniel Hitt (12:09):
Well, everybody eats everybody, that’s the story of ecology, right?
Dave DiBenedetto (12:12):
Right, right, right.
Nathaniel Hitt (12:14):
One of the things that we’ve learned in, some experimental work we’ve done, I run an experimental stream lab at the USGS here in West Virginia. And one of the things we were observing is that brook trout and brown trout, how they interact is a function of temperature. So basically the highest temperatures are right at that edge. We’re talking about, you know, 68 Fahrenheit, which is 20 degrees Celsius. Right about there is where we see this important tipping point where brown trout really out compete brook trout at the colder water, they hold their own, you know, so anything below that, they kind of hold their own better. And the interesting kicker is that when you take brown trout out of the mix, brook trout are better able to deal with warmer water. Now, that’s important. ’cause look, we may not be able to change water temperature, but we may be able to change, you know, stocking practices and that could really benefit these native fish in some cases.
Dave DiBenedetto (13:10):
Alright, I’ll admit that I love a good aquarium and I pretend like that my children really want them, but it’s really me. And I’m the Aquarius in our house. You said experimental stream lab?
Nathaniel Hitt (13:23):
That’s right.
Dave DiBenedetto (13:23):
Tell me what that is. Is that a stream in a building like it, like with rocks and water flow and…
Nathaniel Hitt (13:29):
That’s right. Yeah, so imagine a bunch of tanks hooked together, round tanks with rectangular flume tanks hooked to another round tank, to a flume and on, and we’ll recirculate water through that. So we can control temperature, we can apply some filtration, et cetera. But the real beauty of this is that you can manipulate temperature precisely and that’s a huge piece of the puzzle. And the importance of having these round tanks hooked to flume tanks is simulating some structure so that these fish can establish territories. And that gives them kind of a semi-natural environment so that their behavior is meaningful. So we can take what we learn there and put it out into the real world because that’s what we care about, right? So we take these complicated natural systems, kind of simplify them for an experimental stream lab, learn some stuff, and then turn it back out into the real world and hopefully do some good for conservation.
Eddie Nickens (14:21):
Hey, what else can you manipulate in this system? Than, you can manipulate temperature. Can you manipulate velocity or turbidity?
Nathaniel Hitt (14:28):
Velocity is fixed. Turbidity is something we can manipulate. And actually there’s an interesting story. We anecdotally saw a huge effect of turbidity when we had some wild brook trout in the stream lab a couple years ago. There was a storm event and a little pulse of sediment came through and these fish went berserk, spawning. They were kicking up reds, which are depressions in the gravel where they, you know, lay eggs. We saw a successful spawning and it was triggered by the pulse of sediment coming through just, you know, which is natural. And our thinking about this is that it, that has to be either a smelling cue, the olfactory stuff or a visual cue. But it’s interesting because velocity was not changed to your question. We don’t manipulate velocity. It’s the same amount of water. So the tactile stuff, the feeling of hydraulics. We always assume for years that that’s what triggered fish to move upstream to spawn. The pulse of rain comes through, they feel it, they move upstream, but that doesn’t explain it. So that’s one of the beauties of an experiment. You learn things and that was just by happenstance. But I think that’s important because that tells us something about how these fish have survived for so long. It’s either they’re smelling the difference in water chemistry with sediment or they’re seeing something different and that tells ’em it’s go time
Eddie Nickens (15:45):
From an angling perspective a lot of places in the country, there’s a real big emphasis on, being super careful waiting and that sort of thing. Than, during the springtime, mostly out west, when the trout are spawning. How much of an issue is that in the south in terms of fishing and wadding in the streams in the fall when the brookies are on the reds? And what do we look out for?
Nathaniel Hitt (16:11):
Yeah, that’s a good question. Now we don’t wanna put extra stress on spawning fish. So it’s October, November when we wanna cool off the angling. And also we wanna avoid disturbing a lot of the pea gravel, the spawning beds. You know, it’s something that hasn’t been fully studied, but is the best practice. It’s just wise to avoid putting more pressure on them in the fall when they’re spawning.
Dave DiBenedetto (16:35):
And then let’s make it clear you are a fisherman yourself. A fly fisherman, right? You love catching brook trout.
Nathaniel Hitt (16:41):
I love it, I love the adventure. And one of the things I love the most about it is because I promise you, if you’re fishing for brook trout in the southern Appalachians, you are in an amazing place.
Dave DiBenedetto (16:49):
And do you have, while we’re talking about catching them? Do you have a favorite fly? I mean, you must know a lot about what these fish eat. More so than any of us, right?
Nathaniel Hitt (17:01):
Oh, yeah. It’s pretty funny, though. I wish I was a better angler. We’re always improving, right? I have to admit, most of my angling is. Is, if you can call it that is with my backpack electro fishing system where we’re doing, you know, quantitative surveys, but mayfly patterns in the spring. And also, you know, I get into the terrestrials too when things cool off, get out there in late summer, but keep it super light ultralight or go in size 16. And actually, for places like Shenandoah National Park, where we’ve done a lot of work and have done a decent amount of fishing up there, you have to be essentially like a ninja, right? You are climbing boulders. Some of these pools are gorgeous, but it’s all about the presentation and that fine touch. So that’s just one of the things that makes it so fun.
Dave DiBenedetto (17:43):
What about, I mean they’re voracious, right? I mean, they’re in a tough environment. Food doesn’t come by easy. They seem to be generalists. Is that true in that they’ll eat what’s edible, it sounds like?
Nathaniel Hitt (17:53):
Absolutely. I mean, the larger brook trout, of course will are piscivores, they will eat small fish too.
Dave DiBenedetto (17:59):
Oh yeah.
Nathaniel Hitt (17:59):
I mean it’s really just gape limited. so patterns, all of the above. But they focus on the benthic, the bottom of the stream, the benthos. So nymphs, nymph patterns that, you know, makes a lot of sense, droppers, et cetera. Anglers know this of course, but it’s that drift line. You know, it’s sort of funny how the research world has a complicated way of saying something and then the angling community has a more straightforward way you guys get this. But optimal foraging theory predicts the location of an individual trout, it’s basically where you expect it’s right behind cover, where the velocity is low, but the drift line is high. So they’re just hanging out watching the food come by. It’s almost like one of those sushi on
Dave DiBenedetto (18:41):
On the conveyor belt.
Nathaniel Hitt (18:42):
On some kind of a conveyor belt. You’re just hanging out. And that’s what these fish are doing.
Eddie Nickens (18:47):
Let’s talk about the challenges that these fish face. I mean, we know that there’s just sort of outright habitat destruction. You know, they’re, they’re losing forest to fields, to development. We’re losing hemlocks, which provides some of the shady cover that keep the waters cool.
Nathaniel Hitt (19:00):
That’s right.
Eddie Nickens (19:01):
What are the challenges to brook trout and the Southern Appalachians other than climate change? What are, they really, really struggle with, Than?
Nathaniel Hitt (19:14):
Well, they are running the gauntlet. There are many different things at work. So brook trout need cold water, they need clean water, and they need complex habitat, woody debris, you know, natural habitat. So what we know for a fact is that when you put in an impervious surface, you end up shooting hot water down through that stream. And a small percentage of the watershed in impervious surface, you see brook trout disappear. But there’s something special in spring creeks in these groundwater fed streams that come into places like the Shenandoah Valley, where you still see thermal suitability and the water is cold enough to support brook trout. That’s a sign of optimism there. But in terms of the other major threats, a lot of the stuff we look at is the quality of the spawning gravel. You can learn a lot. Just get into a stream, grab the bottom of the rocks and just see how much dirt shakes off of it. You got a lot of fine sediment and silt, it’s bad news for spawning gravels. And that’s really what I’m concerned about as far as our ability to restore these fish to their native habitats. They have to have clean spawning gravels for these eggs to survive. ’cause those eggs and larvae, they’re unended. So they’re essentially, they need clean oxygenated water during that life history stage for them to produce a successful next generation.
Dave DiBenedetto (20:36):
And the dirt and sediment basically starves ’em of oxygen, right? Smothers ’em. Is that what happens?
Nathaniel Hitt (20:40):
That’s right. And there’s actually been some recent work showing exactly how little of that fine sediment can choke eggs at that boundary layer. I mean, what really matters for an egg is just that micro boundary layer around the egg itself. And so anytime you have organic material against that egg at that boundary layer, well, microbes are eating that organic material. They’re consuming oxygen as they do. And so small amounts of silt and sediment can have a big effect on egg survival. So that’s important. However, you know, that’s the strategy these fish have used for years. It’s not like dirt is a novel thing, right? They’ve seen it all.
Dave DiBenedetto (21:20):
Right.
Nathaniel Hitt (21:20):
So they can deal with a little bit of that, it’s fine. It’s just that when we convert places from forest into agriculture, or particularly from forest into urbanized landscapes, that’s exactly when we see the loss of these fish. There’s been some really impressive work on this by Maryland Department of Natural Resources. We’re really confident about that effect. But that’s not the whole story.
Eddie Nickens (21:47):
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Nathaniel Hitt (22:42):
So we’ve talked about land use, change and conversion from forests to agriculture or to urban, that’s a huge one. But listen, I don’t think that can be the whole story. In fact, we cannot attribute land use change to the declines that we see in Shenandoah National Park. I mean, this is the Blue Ridge, some of the most intact watersheds that we have left protected national park. The forest there is not changed all that much. And you mentioned loss of hemlock and there certainly are changes in forest cover that might be important. But what we see is that over 70% of the streams have lost about half of their brook trout numbers over the last several decades. And we just can’t chalk that up to land use conversion. That’s the atmosphere talking, that’s warming of the air and warming of the streams. But there is also some good news I should mention, if you look at the geology of these different watersheds, we see something interesting where watersheds that were historically depressed with their brook trout numbers because of acid deposition from smoke stacks, sulfur dioxide, et cetera, et cetera, coming in, landing in that stream, acidifying that stream. If the geology of the watershed was very sensitive to it, in other words, if it lacked, you know, buffering calcium or magnesium materials inherent to the rock, then those places had depressed populations of brook trout for years. And we see them coming back. That’s a sign of optimism. And moreover, it’s in the presence of warming. They still seem to be rebounding if you’ve got historically acid sensitive watersheds. So that’s a good sign. It indicates that, you know, the Clean Air Act is probably doing some good for fisheries, but the main threat is that it’s the atmosphere talking both on the warming side, which is troublesome, but also in the improved air quality that we attribute to sort of the rebound of these native fisheries. And that’s good news.

Dave DiBenedetto (24:43):
So the cynic in me says, all right, we were poisoning them, but we stopped doing that. Now we’re boiling them. A little too rough. Geez.
Nathaniel Hitt (24:52):
Well, look.
Dave DiBenedetto (24:54):
So I mean, climate change, I mean, this has come up a lot Than, as we’ve done these episodes, I mean, having such an impact on our wildlife.
Nathaniel Hitt (25:02):
I’ll tell you what, it’s true. And I can say it from my direct first person observation and, and you know, I’ll have to admit it’s somewhat traumatizing when you, I mean, I’m looking at these data sets that have been compiled by Maryland Department of Natural Resources. They’re getting these big fisheries data sets together. It’s fascinating, it’s great stuff. A lot of work. And I’m looking at them for, in some ways, for the first time to look at trends. And we see trends that, I don’t want to say it’s true, but I have to, because that’s what I see. I also see warming waters many places. However, there are signs of resiliency out there, and groundwater is a big piece of that. These spring creeks, depending on the aquifer and how water’s moving through the earth and the volume of these aquifers, we can have resiliency on the landscape. So that’s one thing. And another is that, you know, if we can keep the genetic integrity of these populations intact, then assisted restoration does hold promise. There’s really great work here, West Virginia Department of Natural Resources, Brandon Keplinger and crew, they’re doing great stuff by taking fish from good populations in the upper Potomac River basin and breeding them out in a hatchery environment and taking those heritage strain fish and using those to restore populations in spring creeks where temperature is suitable. So kudos to them. And that’s another sign for optimism there too.
Dave DiBenedetto (26:31):
So, Than a topic that we haven’t spoken a lot about on this podcast, AI when Eddie and I talk about it personally, we talk about it coming after our jobs, but, I know that AI is a powerful tool, and I believe you guys have created something using it that can really be an asset to Brook Trout.
Nathaniel Hitt (26:52):
Well, Dave, I don’t want you to worry about your job. You’re irreplaceable. So don’t sweat that.
Dave DiBenedetto (26:56):
Thanks, I’ll tell AI that when it comes for me.
Nathaniel Hitt (27:00):
Yeah, what we’re doing is applying AI in a tool we call Trout Spotter. And this is really exciting to me because it builds community while we build big data to answer questions for conservation of brook trout and all sorts of other trout species too. So here’s how it works. So we’ve talked about the beautiful spot pattern coloration of brook trout, but it turns out that those spots are essentially a fingerprint, they’re individually unique patterns. So the arrangement of spots can give you an identity, not just of the species, but of that individual, which is,
Dave DiBenedetto (27:38):
That’s cool. That’s cool.
Nathaniel Hitt (27:39):
Really cool.
Eddie Nickens (27:39):
Oh, wow.
Nathaniel Hitt (27:39):
Now there are already tools out there for species recognition, through images. So you might be familiar with Seek, which is an iNaturalist program, great, Picture This, a whole bunch of apps are out there already. I love the stuff, it helps you identify species, but we’re taking it a step further by identifying individuals using images. So anglers catch a fish, brook trout, snap a photo. They’re using the On Water app, On Water fish app, fantastic angler log app, and they hit submit on the trout spotter tool there. Boom, that picture goes into a pipeline. And essentially we’re using computer vision to identify and remember that individual fish based on the spot patterns. Then you release this fish, good luck, George. And bam, when that fish is observed, again entered through a image submission, you can get a notification saying, Hey, we found George, George was here. George survived. Isn’t that cool? So you deepen your understanding of the river and the fish. While at the same time, researchers like me get big data to do something special and important. We can estimate abundance, we can estimate trends, we can look at survival rates. These are the things that we really need to know as we move forward, especially right now as things are changing so fast.
Eddie Nickens (29:00):
So Than, how does that, how does that work on the stream? So an angler must have to register somehow. How do anglers get involved with this?
Nathaniel Hitt (29:11):
It starts by downloading On Water Fish app. And this is a fantastic app. It allows you to log your catch just to keep notes on your trip. And that’s all private information. And I should also say that all of this is private information, no spot burning. We’re not gonna publish the location.
Dave DiBenedetto (29:28):
I, that was my next question.
Nathaniel Hitt (29:31):
I get you.
Dave DiBenedetto (29:31):
I was like, whoa, I’m not sharing. So we are sharing with the scientific community, but not with other anglers who say, oh, somebody caught a brook trout on Tiger Creek, you know.
Nathaniel Hitt (29:43):
That is correct. Now we are going to produce some watershed level state of the science. Here’s what we’ve learned at this watershed or at that watershed, but we’re not gonna have point locations. That’s not something we’re interested in. And I think you
Dave DiBenedetto (29:56):
Don’t wanna put that pressure on the fish.
Nathaniel Hitt (29:57):
Well, that’s true, but I think there’s so much that we can learn and that’s exciting. And guess what? At the same time, I think we’re doing something smart by going to the people that are actually on the water the angling community, right? I mean, the DNRs of the world, I have such respect for, I’m in the USGS this is the department of the Interior, um, institution. We are, we do great work, but they’re just not enough biologists out there to do all the work that we need to do. It’s the anglers. The anglers who know these places, love these places and have a lot to say. So it’s, it’s about building that community and it’s about engaging the public. And you know, I have to say now more than ever, citizen science, participatory science, it’s more important than ever. Because let’s face it, you know, people are asking, who do I trust? Do I trust some scientists somewhere else? No, you have to get involved. And that gets back to the first principle of science after all. I mean, the first motto of the first scientific society, it was see for yourself. And I just, I just love that.
Dave DiBenedetto (31:03):
Yeah.
Nathaniel Hitt (31:03):
Nullius in verba, see for yourself. And we’re only gonna get that if we embrace the community of people that are out there and that can participate with their own work.
Dave DiBenedetto (31:15):
Alright, Than I’ve got a personal question that tears me up a little. I love fish, but I occasionally love to eat a fish and I only keep what I’m going to eat fresh. I don’t freeze anything. But I’ve always had the dream of one day being able to catch a brook trout on a tiny mountain stream. And I’ve have my trusty tiny cast iron with me and to start a little fire and, eat a brook trout. But does that just, does that make me the devil?
Nathaniel Hitt (31:48):
No, you’re speaking my language. I mean, this is the deal. We’ve gotta get there. We’ve gotta get there now.
Dave DiBenedetto (31:53):
Right.
Nathaniel Hitt (31:53):
You know, you’re smart. You’ll think about the population where you’re fishing, but.
Dave DiBenedetto (31:57):
Right.
Nathaniel Hitt (31:57):
Getting these fisheries back to the place where that can be done everywhere. That’s the goal. Right?
Dave DiBenedetto (32:03):
Right.
Nathaniel Hitt (32:12):
That is the goal. And I tell you what, a little lemon, a little butter campfire, you name it.
Dave DiBenedetto (32:13):
There you go Than.
Eddie Nickens (32:07):
Than, you hadn’t seen, you hadn’t seen how much chicken bog that man could put away. You wouldn’t be encouraging this. I’m telling you.
Dave DiBenedetto (32:16):
I said one trout Eddie. I said one little guy.
Nathaniel Hitt (32:18):
And I’ll tell you what, know your population and this is where you gotta pay attention. There’s some places we have five fish day creel limit and I’d say, you know, you put five anglers in there for three days and that’s game over. And that’s no good. We wanna be careful about that.
Dave DiBenedetto (32:34):
Yeah.
Nathaniel Hitt (32:35):
Another thing we wanna be careful about is not overstress in these fish as you take photos for Trout Spotter. Right? It’s common sense. But it’s keep ’em wet,, hand net wet hands, minimal handling. We know that it’s not going to kill fish. The amount of stress that’s gonna be applied, but we have to use common sense.
Eddie Nickens (32:54):
You said, lots of research questions can be answered through this. Than what kinds of questions can be answered? And what kinds of questions will Trout Spotter be digging into first?
Nathaniel Hitt (33:09):
It starts with how many fish there are. It’s just an abundance estimation. And honestly, we have to have individual identities for us to do that because you don’t know if you’re counting the same fish twice, right? And this goes back to wildlife biology, you know, I mean, as long as there have been cameras, there have been biologists putting cameras in trees and stuff. And look, especially in the, you know, terrestrial world. So looking at zebras or other animals with very distinctive markings. And that’s been done for years and years, but it’s never been automated and it’s also never been done in the freshwater environment. And so that’s what we’re bringing to the table now.
Eddie Nickens (33:46):
So other than abundance indices, what can we learn about a stream by knowing that George is a super happy dude right there.
Nathaniel Hitt (33:55):
Right, yeah. So in addition to abundance, we can estimate movement rates, we can estimate survival rates. And this is important. We know from prior work that survival rates aren’t the same everywhere. So we wanna understand that. And so that can help inform creel limits or other management, you know, elements of management. But it starts with abundance. And then we can look at movement, which is interesting in terms of spawning or other attributes of population dynamics and then get into survival rates. Survival rates is gonna be really interesting. And honestly, that’s just something we’re not gonna be able to estimate unless the angling community gets out there and gets involved with Trout Spotter and helps us do it.
Dave DiBenedetto (34:37):
Yeah, I mean, it’s true citizen science without a question.
Eddie Nickens (34:41):
But I guess ultimately you could get to the point where an angler takes a photograph of a trout, but also it could take maybe a water sample or build an even more robust data set.
Nathaniel Hitt (33:53):
Yeah, the sky’s the limit with the advent of all sorts of technology in your cell phone. There are a whole bunch of things that we can do now that we could never do before. Another example of that is what we call the Flow Pictures Explorer. It’s a USGS tool that allows citizen scientists to essentially use trail cams or cell phone images to estimate the flow rates of streams.
Dave DiBenedetto (35:21):
Oh, cool.
Nathaniel Hitt (35:22):
And this is another example of how we can use imagery in a new way to measure the things that we care about. And this is particularly important. I mean, if you guys remember last summer’s drought conditions were off the charts in our neck of the woods here in West Virginia. We had municipal water suppliers going into emergency backup mode, which changes the water treatment requirements, it changes the water chemistry, it changes the cost of treatment, changes the disinfectant byproducts, you name it. And it’s ’cause of a drought. So now we have to have eyes on stream flow. And a lot of this, again, goes back to that groundwater story, which is a big part of our research program, trying to understand how water’s moving underground that affects the streams above ground, the fisheries, and also ultimately how we use water and our water security.

Dave DiBenedetto (36:14):
And just to be clear, for listeners, Trout Spotter, you could go to the app store and get it when it’s launched, correct?
Nathaniel Hitt (36:19):
That’s right. You go to the app store, find On Water Fish, and also you can go to tu.org. This is Trout Unlimited, their homepage. They’ll have a landing page there for you.
Dave DiBenedetto (36:30):
And when do you plan to launch?
Nathaniel Hitt (36:32):
This thing will be live in early June.
Dave DiBenedetto (36:34):
Perfect.
Nathaniel Hitt (36:35):
At the same time, I gotta say one piece of it makes me a little queasy.
Dave DiBenedetto (36:40):
Let’s hear it, let’s hear it
Nathaniel Hitt (36:41):
Here’s the full, the full confession. You know, you’re out there on the water, it’s, you’re finally still, your mind is finally still and you’re watching that drift then bam, strike all of a sudden. Do we really wanna drag out the cell phone for this moment? Do we really wanna drag out the tech? You know, that’s the one part of it. But I’ll tell you the truth is, anglers are doing this anyway, and we just have to, you know, minimize handling, be smart about it, but let’s not let the tech distract us. I mean, it’s about the experience. And we hope this will deepen our experience and our appreciation and our connection to the river, to the fisheries and to other anglers. All of a sudden you’re connected to an angling community. You could learn the history of this fish that you’ve caught. We’ve always wondered about that. And now we can actually answer it.
Eddie Nickens (37:30):
You know, if we can change the visual language of angling from a, you know, a pier full of dead fish to citizen science, then I’m all for it, I’m all for having a bit of technology in the woods.
Dave DiBenedetto (37:47):
Well put. yeah. And if it means a more productive, healthy fishery, then absolutely. I think it’s great. And congrats, Than. I mean, this is really cool stuff.
Nathaniel Hitt (37:58):
Well, I appreciate that. You know, we’re gonna learn a lot this year, so let’s stay in touch.
Dave DiBenedetto (38:03):
This has been very cool Than. I’d love to, I’d love to come see your experimental stream lab and then a couple of your honey holes. So, if I come knocking on your door, I hope you answer.
Nathaniel Hitt (38:14):
I love it. I love it. Come on up.
Eddie Nickens (38:16):
It’s a special fish and it’s gonna take a special effort to keep it on the landscape Than. We’re just, we’re so appreciative of the work you do and the other scientists, both the state and the, and the federal men and women who are out there scratching their heads ever. So we got a, we got a future for the brook trout.
Nathaniel Hitt (38:34):
Amen. Thank you for having me.
Dave DiBenedetto (38:45):
Wow. I know what I’m doing. As soon as I step away from this mic, Eddie, I’m gonna go download Trout Spotter onto my phone.
Eddie Nickens (38:53):
Oh man. All I could think about is poor little George up there in his little trout pool. His fins are quaking knowing that DiBenedetto is showing up with his three weight.
Dave DiBenedetto (39:04):
He better be ready for his closeup ’cause I’m coming. But in all honesty, man, what a positive force that Than is.
Eddie Nickens (39:13):
And it’s so cool that this is a way for anglers to get involved. You know, we don’t have to sit by the sidelines on science anymore. We can plug in to this project, to this Trout Spotter and be a part of the solution.
Dave DiBenedetto (39:25):
Yeah, well, you, you’re gonna have to catch a fish first, Eddie, I’m gonna leave it at that.
Eddie Nickens (39:31):
Hurtful.
Dave DiBenedetto (39:36):
The Wild South comes to you from Garden and Gun Magazine. This episode was produced and edited by Christine Fennessy with music by our longtime friends, Woody Platt and Bennett Sullivan. You can find us wherever you get your shows.
Eddie Nickens (39:52):
And wherever you get your shows, please take a little old half second to leave us a review. These things matter. We care about what you think. We’d love to hear about what you think. So please leave us a review.
Dave DiBenedetto (40:03):
And if we don’t have five stars, my mom is not gonna be impressed. Alright from here in Charleston, I’m Dave DiBenedetto.
Eddie Nickens (40:11):
And from here in Raleigh, North Carolina, Eddie Nickens. We’ll see you next time on Wild South.
Wild South credits:
Producer and editor: Christine Fennessy
Music: Woody Platt and Bennett Sullivan
Artwork: Lars Leetaru
Transcripts editor: Katherine Jarvis